Rant Alert! Stop reading if you don’t like being told how it is.
As you probably know I’ve teamed up with Omar Martin and over the last few days we’ve been promoting Mike Filsaime’s Evergreen Business System.
I’ve had a few interesting replies from the emails I’ve sent out, look what Bill had to say.
Hi John,
Not sure if you’ll get this or not, but you and I had and exchange a few weeks ago via email. I had commented on your rant post (http://planetsmsblog.com/the-state-of-the-im-industry) and named a marketer in order to give an example of what I thought was unethical behavior.
Looking at the EBS system, it looks like part of what I was complaining about (a pre-recorded webinar dishonestly being presented as live) is this year big launch! Its exactly what EBS does.
It may be this industry is not a good fit for me after all…
Bill
Jim wasn’t too pleased either.
Sorry John,
I find this software to be totally unethical and downright dishonest. Trying to make people believe that they are at a live webinar. It doesn’t sit right with me. And I was agreeing with your recent ‘rant’ about honesty what happened?
Jim
I also had more people unsubscribe than usual so it seems that this software is causing quite a stir as some people are seeing it as unethical. Most people seem to think your presenting a pre-recorded webinar as a live event.
You don’t pitch anything pre-recorded as a live webinar at all. You pitch it as a presentation, an event, nothing unethical goes on and Mike doesn’t teach you to present this as ‘live’. I would never use this to ‘pretend’ to be live when using this, it just wouldn’t work and it’s also dishonest. If you are thinking like this then you obviously haven’t took the time to check this out properly.
Unlike a live event, when someone chooses to watch your presentation at a time that suits them, they are in the right frame of mind to listen to what you have to say. This is because they decided what time to watch your presentation. You didn’t force them to make a decision as you would do with a live event so you get their full attention.
This is the main point I want to put across, you are not forcing your potential customers to watch at your desired time, you are letting them watch at their desired time and this is why conversions with this type of marketing are so high.
Once again I must point out that this is not about tricking people into thinking something is live. It’s about putting together a presentation and turning it into an event that can be played at a time that suits your prospect, and there’s nothing unethical about it.
Also, when an event is live things can go wrong, I personally know this from experience. There are also usually pauses and other imperfections (I tend to say erm a lot) so by preparing your presentation in advance you can get rid of any imperfections and seriously improve the quality of the session thus improving the whole experience for the attendee.
If you still think this is unethical let me ask you this? Is it unethical to use an autoresponder sequence that is pre programmed to send emails on Day 1 … Day 2 … Day 3 of a subscription, is that dishonest as well? Shouldn’t you manually send these emails? What about using the {firstname} tag to make the reader think that your email is personal, surely that is unethical too? Well this is no different.
At the end of the day this software is revolutionary and it seems to be making a big splash and some people will use it in an unethical manner and pitch recordings as live but those people will get found out. People like myself will use this software in an ethical way and will make tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars from it, mostly on autopilot.
Now it’s time for me to be brutally honest with you.
If you don’t have $500 to invest or you still think this is an unethical way of marketing don’t buy it. If you don’t think you’ll take action and actually put this to good use then stay away, but please don’t criticize people who do use it.
However, if you think the Evergreen Business System can help you move forward and actually make you some money then buy it, try it for 30 days and if it’s not for you ask Mike for a refund.
I’m going to end this post by telling you this.
I will be using the Evergreen Business System to take my business forward, I expect it to help me make hundreds of thousands of dollars in a very short space of time.
I also have a killer bonus that can help you move forward with me. Some of my subscribers wont like that and they will unsubscribe and that’s something I’ll have to deal with. However I will still sleep at night knowing I am marketing in an ethical manner and providing value to my customers and subscribers who stay with me.
Use your head, try the Evergreen Business System and take your business forward.
As always your comments are welcome, good or bad, let me know what you think!
EDIT! At the time of writing our bonus offer is still available. Omar Martin and myself can help you get the most out of Evergreen Business System so if you really want to try this out we can provide you with additional training.
46 Comments
Andrew Stark
August 4, 2011Hi John
The people complaining are internet marketing victims. They’re looking for ways to fail rather than the opportunities it can bring.
At the moment I’m not up for spending $500, but I can see that used properly it can have the same impact that butterfly marketing did all those years ago.
Hope that you and Omar do well in the launch contest.
Andrew
Paula
August 4, 2011I have to admit I don’t know much about this product but I saw the very funny video that Omar did and he actually says “the script simulates a live webinar”, so I had the impression that it is making people think that the webinars are live. Thanks for clearing it up
Mike
August 4, 2011John,
I follow another marketer that makes use of live and recorded webinars. And as you know, most webinars are available for playback later if you missed the live presentation. So, it’s convenient for me, and has a broader reach for the person marketing the material. As long as the audience knows ahead of time, it’s all good.
Mike
Manie Amari
August 4, 2011I think that it’s good of you John to point this point out here on your blog. At the end of the day anyone can use other tools other than EBS to market online unethically. It all depends on each marketer individually. But again I have to commend you here John. Because most marketers(even the ones that market ethically) will keep quite later after finding out the product their promoting is a bit controversial(regardless of whether it can be used in a ethical or unethical manner). Whereas you haven’t shied from this fact and have put it out there for everyone to see.
Manie
David DeWitt
August 4, 2011I am surprised that anybody would think there is anything dishonest going on here, and I see this as a fantastic opportunity for online marketers or online businesses in general. Webinars, are generally thought to be educational in the sense that the term Webinar comes from the term Seminar but seminars have always been not just educational but used for upsells.
Today, a Webinar is basically used as a live sales presentation that includes valuable tips, business practices, and information the attendee is interested in.
I have followed the links to see what the Evergreen Business System sales page looks like and can see how this easy to use software or script (not sure which it is, actually) is a giant leap forward for anybody now using video, or other kinds of interactive sale presentations. It is very impressive!
It is not cheap but it is not over-priced, either, for what you are getting. It is a one time expense, too! Honestly, if you are not comfortable delivering a presentation or just haven’t reached that level, yet, this isn’t for you. If you have someone on your team or working in your business who would love to do this for you, then, I say, go for it.
The very fact that these presentations can be repeated on demand makes them money makers for as long as the product or service is currently available. And this means they are working for you 24/7 once you get them online.
I think the people who are complaining about them being presented as live, are just mistaken, and I am glad John has made the difference clear for people who have innocently misunderstood what this all about.
Ben Johnson
August 4, 2011I think to be fair to those who’ve suggested it’s unethical, if you watch the sales video it does “suggest” on several occasions that people will think they’re on a live Webinar. Again the fact that you can add simulated names to the list is in itself suggesting you COULD “pretend” it’s a live Webinar.
Personally, as a marketer, I can see the huge benefits of it from a teaching and business automation point of view … and I could see myself using it in an ethical and open way to deliver training. But I’d probably just buy the software which I known I can get for a 10th of the price tag offered here as I’ve seen it elsewhere about 12 months ago. I do realise though that training is offered in this overall price.
All the same, I wish you the very best with the promo.
Ben
Chuck Bartok
August 4, 2011Not as sophisticated as most here, I did not see the advantage of this NEW product. For years I have been “doing” what this program does through Citrix.
We offer live webinars, and those “pre-recorded” ( works well for Subscription based training)
Conversions have always been very rewarding and did not have to spend any more money
Steve
August 7, 2011Two things to consider Chuck. If you have to use Citrix, you have to be live on each webinar and creating a rolling launch is taxing. In the end, you can only man so many ships. This allows for leveraging time. For me, promoting multiple projects becomes much easier with better tracking and testing tools.
I love the concept and with a one-time as opposed to a monthly, it seems like a bargain. And no, I’m not an affiliate for software. I’m just an owner.
Ed
August 4, 2011Hey John,
Totally agree with you, on this….I feel we are looking at people like this are people waiting with a *branding iron* at their PC for every *new* launch that comes along…
In the same vain as Andrew just said, they are reading and listening to the promo material…and the second they read it the wrong way hammer home that critic branding iron!
What they should be doing is as you say towards the end of your post is…
Using their head, and take *action*…try the Evergreen Business System and take their business forward.
I myself won’t be buying but that’s down to my personal business commitments and tied up investment in them projects!
however….
From what I’ve read in Rich Scheffins report….EEDM…I can see exactly where this business model can take you….no hype BS…just like Mike’s *Butterfly Marketing*!
Listen guy’s I was taught how to market by John Thornhill, and I think you’ll find he’s one of the most ethical marketers you’ll find out there on the net….*PERIOD*…
More than I can say for some (No Names)..(You know who you are)!!
Your blog post is more than warranted, why do people want to critize a system designed *mechanically* to leverage profits to their business in a forthright manner….go figure?
Anyway John I’m on the same plain as you on this…love to hear your results down the line on using this EEDEM system…Ed.
Susan Stroud
August 4, 2011It’s absurd to suppose pre-recorded webinars are unethical – Rich Schefren has been using them for quite a while. I actually like them better because of the convenience; as you said, I can watch them on my schedule. I can’t understand why anyone would promote them as “live”, which would be unethical I guess, although what’s the difference? No Q & A? Ooooh. Is there inherently more value in a live webinar other than the chance to ask questions or make comments? The only danger would be recycling them to the same lists for too long ir trying to promote them as new when they aren’t.
Susan
Anthony Smits
August 4, 2011Hi John
That’s a ‘rant?’ Keep on ranting, then..
I don’t think you’ll get any unsubscribes of anyone who would be worth keeping..!
As has been agreed by readers already, any tool can can be used for good or bad and ‘evergreen’ webinar technology is no different.
We already see webinars replayed and replayed, and I rarely get to see alive one anyway. Too many other things happening.
Nothing wrong with this – or your views on it.
All power to you and Omar in the launch.
Anthony
Pete Bruckshaw
August 4, 2011A lot of people who buy IM products have been burnt in the past. They’re all too ready to criticize ethical marketers like yourself and Omar. Understandable but a shame that people are quick to jump to conclusions without the full facts.
Dee
August 4, 2011Hi John
I agree with what you say and it would seem some people have nothing better to do than discredit others.
It would certainly be unethical if it had been advertised as a live webinar and wasn’t.
As Anthony said, you won’t lose much by the unsubscribes, anyone who really knows you and what you stand for will stick with you.
Regards
Dee
Phil Rogers
August 4, 2011Pre-recorded webinar? Is that what they are calling videos nowadays?
Webinars have recently become the flavour of the month, but many of them have been in the middle of the night for people like me who are not based in the USA.
So I usually watch the recordings anyway.
And I can go back and listen again if I missed something.
I just find it annoying when the recordings only stay online for a few days.
Ken Mason
August 4, 2011John,
I am not sure whether I find the EBS scammy, but the creator of the program is sure at question. It seems we should name him “Mr. Launch of the Month”. He seems to start a new program which is the best new thing on earth and then promptly drop it and move on. If the program doesn’t do what you want, good luck getting that refund you mentioned. I know these launches are a big source of revenue for you, but I really wish you would stick with what you are really good at, and that is teaching us to be better marketers. Most of us need to learn the basics not how to spend money on multi-hundred dollar programs that we aren’t even ready for. Just adding my thoughts.
John Thornhill
August 4, 2011Hi Ken,
As far as I am aware Mike hasn’t launched many products over the last 12 months, I can only recall one. Mike is currently earning $300,000 per month with EBS so it does work. If I can do a tenth of that I’ll be more than happy. I also know you will receive a refund if it’s required.
I do teach the basics as well Ken, I have many coaching programs to suit all budgets. Drop me an email if you ever need anything or want to find out more.
John
Jim Ackroyd
August 4, 2011Hi,
I’m the Jim mentioned by John in his rant. Firstly I’d like to say that I find John Thornhill to be the most honest marketer I’ve come accross.
However, my comments to John were about the way this software was promoted during pre-launch.
I watched the whole video and there were definatly parts of the video that made me angry.
A couple of things to mention are:
The ability to add phantom subscribers to the event. If this was used by a marketer there would be no doubt it would be unethical.
And the ‘Survey Wizard’ which allows you to pre-populate the result of a survey in your favour. Now if that’s not downright dishonest then I don’t know what is.
Now I agree with John that used ethically this software would be a boon to many marketers but why was it promoted as being able to fool the subscriber?
Regards
Jim Ackroyd
Gary Jenkins
August 4, 2011Jim I have to agree with you.
I don’t see how ANY ethical marketer can justify needing those features, or worse using them.
A lie is a lie. Period.
Zora
August 4, 2011Hi john and fellow rantors
Johns on the cutting edge of the beginning of IM Evolution. When you’re on the forefront and a trail blazer and move at a fast pace you can’t help ruffling some feathers.
When there’s change some people can’t comprehend the new methods’. Some people don’t like to get out of the comfort box .Change stirs up things and causes uncomfort and grouchy rumblings.
They will continue to complain and be uneasy with change until they finally embrace the new that will become the now. Just like all of the previous change s in or lives.
At first we don’t like it but as everybody else add it we might gripe and complain but we eventually hop on board. I always watch the rerun not the live events .I feel more at ease like theres time to back up and pause so I can write down the parts I like.
They plainly state that it is a repeat not live event silly. I believe John would not be dishonest even by mistake it seems he takes great care with his relationship with his customers.
Thanks John for being on the cutting edge and sharing with everybody.
A mentor like John will go in the lead and shine the light to show us the path.
Zora
steve
August 4, 2011i suppose there are 2 sides to every coin but in saying that i know of a marketer who’s from the uk has used this saying its a live event even to the point of reading out names that he can tell supposedly aren’t paying attention only to be calling out the same names when you log in again i think this sucks shame on you mr.c
Graham Price
August 4, 2011Hi John – As far as I am concerned you rightly comment that it was never about tricking or fooling people into thinking that they are attending a live webinar. Furthermore for people who like me listened to Mike’s full presentation with interest. Mike quite clearly also states this, he infact guides people away from promoting the “Live” terminology.
I am encouraging my business partner to take a serious look at the system as we sell to off-line businesses who are totally tied up in most cases with doing what they do best, running their businesses. So as far as I am concerned Mike’s product would be ideal in allowing the flexibility to suit their prefered schedule and needs.
Kindest Regards,
Graham Price
Linda
August 4, 2011Well when I found out about this evergreen software through Mike himself and found out that it was all about pre-recorded events, I decided not to promote it. Why? Well, I have been on his pre-recorded events and they turned me off in a huge way, plus I have seen many other people who despise this type of activity, so why would I think about promoting something that I and others do not agree with.
For me, I would rather listen to a messed up recorded live webinar than to see pre-recorded things that are basically old news, not in the actual present. While I understand the concept, it is not for me, there for I could not promote something that I don’t believe in.
I also understand this is a wave of the future and I guess what we all need to do is accept it and maybe try it for ourselves to see if it is really what it is all hyped up about.
Thanks for your opinion, John.
Have a wonderful day!
Linda
Carol
August 5, 2011Hi
This is all about interpretation, choice and the level of pedanticism (is that a word? – if not it should be) you aspire to. If people wish to use marketing tools unethically, they will. This particular tool appears to have lots of options but I do recall in the pre-launch video Mike saying that he wouldn’t advise using it dishonestly.
Actually, if I was at a webinar and was the only person atending, I could choose to feel ‘chuffed’ that the presenter decided to proceed purely to accommodate my time schedule, or I could choose to assume that the product wasn’t worth the effort.
I think the bottom line here is that you need to be honest with your customers – if the event isn’t live, simply say so and provide the reason.
My last point is that technology in general tends to change game plans in a big way. We must simply choose how to use it and how to live with it. If you are ethical at heart, you know it and your actions show it. If you are not, you also know it and your actions will definitely show it. Everyone can choose their bottom line.
Best wishes,
Carol
Carol Smith
August 5, 2011It is not as if I were planning to buy the product. I am clearly not ready for that yet. That’s not to mention the price.
Everyday I get emails, sales pages, etc. filled with hype. I just consider the source and say, “Well, I’m sure”. I do not buy from those people and I don’t even read their blogs, books, etc. I don’t sign up for their webcast. It doesn’t matter to me if it is live or not.
No matter what, they are sitting in their office, studio or wherever doing it live or recording it. Not much difference.
My point is this: If I were contemplating a purchase from a marketer whom I respected and was concerned about claims I would write him or her about it. If it was from a promoter like John, I would write him and ask him to help clarify my questions.
Remember, you have the power in your hands. Buy it if you wish or don’t.
By the way John, I like your analogy to email. Remind people that if they want to make people think their emails are current not to put dated items in them.
Carol
Omar Martin
August 5, 2011Ok – this will be a long one… and I’m pretty sure I’ll upset few people off as well but if you are an ethical business minded entrepreneur you’ll be glad you read this whole reply.
Now look, first things first…
I call it how it is, I speak bluntly and often with a whip of sarcasm or satire. Most people appreciate me for that. Just know that I respect the educated opinions of others especially of the good people on this blog.
#1 I am VERY outspoken when it comes to issues of online integrity
The Success Renegade recently said: “Omar is the most out spoken consumer advocate in the Internet Marketing community we’ve ever seen.”
#2 I am an educator and successful internet marketer that embraces new technology and the inherent changes that come with our industry. I believe that this principle is the ONLY way to survive and prosper while marketing on the most rapidly advancing medium in the history of mankind. The INTERNET.
With all that being said, please know that I am not rtrying to be argumentative or insight a debate. There is no dbate here in my opinion.
*It is NOT unethical to simulate a LIVE event. Period. The main reason for using the internet as a platform to sell products is the unparalleled ability to automate the process. Automation is the recurring technical simulation of a live manual function.
Have you ever flown on an airplane for more than an hour? Did you think the PILOT was flying that plane with his hands on the controls the whole time? NO. It was on autopilot most of the time.
Let me ask you… Is it unethical that pilots don’t get on the intercom and say “Attention passengers, I’m putting the plane on autopilot now while I take a nap?”
Would the passengers be happy if they heard that, would they buy another ticket. NO? …Have you boycotted any airlines lateley or sent emails to them complaining about their “Autopilot and Live Simulation Ethics”… NO. Will you stop flying or complain to them now that I’ve made my point. Probably not.
So why do people feel the need to do it here? Hmmmm…. Probably because they have come to premature conclusions of their own. They haven’t actually tested the software themselves and they don’t know enough about it speak BUT they try to prevent others from buying it anyway.. or even funnier… they chose to try and educate those of us that are selling it and ARE infact very familiar with the software because WE ACTUALLY USE IT.
The evergreen business system has the ability for you to have LIVE chats, and also to display only LIVE attendees in the list IF YOU SO WISH. This feature is built in FOR YOU. To HELP YOU make more sales by creating the feeling that your prospects are not alone in the broadcast room. GotoWebinar doesn’t show the attendees a list of other in attendance and you are not forced to do so with EBS. The CHOICE is yours.
It’s about CHOICE.
More people die in car accidents than GUN related injuries… should we ban driving?
No of course not… because the power is in the CHOICES of the operator. The CHOICE to drink and drive. The CAR is not the killer.
Everything on earth can be used for good or evil, the CHOICE is yours.
What disturbs me is when people try to tarnish the reputation of a good product by pointing fingers based on their own assumptions and FEARS. Just beacause they assume that a product will be used for bad purposes they hold others back from potentially having huge success in life. We should always be mindful of the source’s credibility before jumping on any old bandwagon. Align yourself with those that are SUCCESSFUL in the industry they speak of and are actively using the methods and tools they speak of.
If you take issue with the automation of webinars and even with the simulation of a live event for the purpose of increasing sales then you should also stop:
> Drip feeding pre-created content on membership sites.
> Spining articles for mass submission instead of writing them all.
> Targeting keywords to divert traffic to YOUR site.
> Selling PLR products that you did not create yourself
> Using an autoresponder series to simulate “Real” emails.
> Using virtual assistant scripts, automatic pop ups or exit redirects.
> Hiring ghost writers to produce content.
…THE LIST GOES ON AND ON….
As a matter of fact… if you remove everything that simulates a live action in online selling you wont even be left with a business and you’re better off opening a brick and mortar store that interacts with people one by one if they find you and walk in.
If you are not using automated webinars in your business yet, my advice is that you START NOW or you’ll fall behind.
Look… EBS is an automation software that CAN “simulate” a live event. This is no different than a pre recorded live television show, where laghter sounds are digitally inserted during post production. The software illiminates the need for you to attend BUT if you want to be on 3 live webinars per day you can suit yourself… There is a built in feature that still enables you to stream a pre-recorded video while interacting in a LIVE chat envioronment to answer questions!
How cool is that?!!
In addition – you can have the questions forwarded to you by email if you prefer and if the issue REALLY still bothers you then you can simply post an announcement on the page that says: “This webinar was recorded earlier” – unlike other webinar software’s on the market EBS actually gives you control of what is displayed so you can insert any text you want.
You CAN NOT accomplish these things with a “LIVE only” platform like Citrix GotoWebinar. DO NOT MISTAKEN THESE TOOL AS BEING SIMILAR. They are not the same. A live platform like Citrix does not provide affiliate links, replay pages, social sharing or pretty much ANY of the features that EBS has. Anyone that claims it does simply doesn’t know what they are talking about.
Automated webinars are not a bad thing, in fact they are VERY good and they can help you deliver more quality content while building trust with your prospect in an un-intrusive sales environment. This can help you build trust and make more money online.
Try Evergreen Business Systems now, get it through our link and we’ll give you added support and training to boost your profits.
Thanks for reading.
To your Success,
Omar Martin
Steve Wilkins
August 5, 2011Wow Omar,
that was another post in itself. But I’m glad I read it all the way through. I was actually really excited when I was made aware of the bonus offer your and John have put together and was immediatly thinking of ways I could use this new technolgy in my business.
You have got it down right. Technology is growing and evolving at an incredible rate and our IM industry is changing all the time. What worked a few years ago, no longer works today which is why if we want to stay ahead of the curve then we must adapt to these conditions and evolve ourselves with this new technology
I appreciate that everyone is at different stages with their online businesses and some may not be ready for this kind of technology. I mean it can take a while just to get your head around basic HTML coding when you first start out online but then again for some online marketers like myself who feels they are now up to speed with this kind of evolvments, this technology will help grow our list and increase sales tenfold.
I for one will be purchasing this and implementing it into my business. My opinion is, it is all about the quality of the webinar recorded and not at all about whether it is a live event or not.
I agree with most comments here that you should not trick your subscribers into thinking you are in attendance at the webinar if your not but I really do not see the harm of using this software to disply a webinar at muliple times during the day and some of the time settings inside EBS which allow you to control time zone showings looks really cool. That’s all from me anyway. Nearly wrote a whole post myself there 😉
Steve Wilkins.
Bill
August 8, 2011Hi folks,
If you look at the original emails John posted (and wasn’t that a surprise!) the issue is not with the capabilities of the software as a tool. Yes the software is cool – sure it will save time and allow for automation. We can all agree that those are good features. And I do not think either email was intended to disparage Johns reputation.
The problem is that the software seems tailor made to deceive the audience into believing something that is not true – with the intent to influence them to buy. What is the value in trying to fool the audience? In what scenario would running fake polls and padding the attendee list be considered ethical? I have yet to think of one (would love to hear some, though).
Of course you don’t have to use those features – I get that. But IF (note the IF there) those features are fully implemented, it would seem to be treading dangerously close to fraud. At the least it would be dishonest, in my opinion.
All right – batter up!
Jim Ackroyd
August 5, 2011Hi Omar,
Some good points there but it doesn’t get round the fact that the software was promoted as having the ability to fool subscribers!
You wrote “More people die in car accidents than GUN related injuries… should we ban driving?
No of course not… because the power is in the CHOICES of the operator. The CHOICE to drink and drive. The CAR is not the killer.”
Poor analogy, I never saw a car advert that said ‘This car will mow down pedestrians if you so wish’.
Nuff said
Jim
Jim Ackroyd
August 5, 2011Hi All,
Just to add to my last post. This is a great peice of software – I just wish it had been pitched ethically.
Jim
Omar Martin
August 5, 2011Jim – Thanks for the clarification that its actually the “pitch” that you have an issue with and not the software. Perhaps your email was misunderstood.
Thanks again.
Omar
Joseph Knight
August 5, 2011I won’t be buying. I am concerned more by a BBB “F” rating. How did that happen to Mr Filsaime?
All this training….takes me back a few years. I bought the tapes and manuals then.
There are very still waters in IM today and somebody is protesting very loudly. It is not John.
A recorded webinar. So what? Its just an infomercial.
A live webinar is the real deal. Its like the miming on Top Of The Pops. Smell the fear.
Omar Martin
August 6, 2011Joseph – Just an FYI… The BBB is the biggest scam there is:
http://youtu.be/Yo8kfV9kONw
Josh
August 8, 2011I do not have a problem with the way in which this product is being marketed, because I simply am not interested in it. I am not purchasing it because I have a product which suits my needs much better than this product currently does. I have bought two or three of Mike Filsaime’s products and was not really impressed with any of them. That being said, I have nothing against him as a marketer.
However, I do have a problem with your statement “the BBB is the biggest scam there is”. The BBB is far from being the biggest scam there is or was for that matter. There are and have been far worse scams that have hurt consumers more than businesses. I certainly would not base a statement such as “the BBB is the biggest scam there is” just on a pre-recorded and edited video clip from a 50th ranked sensationalist journalism TV show which only had one clear motive when conducting this interview. This show has been fighting for its life in the ratings for some time now just to stay alive and on TV.
For the record, when I last checked Mike Filsaime’s BBB rating, it was a C. This isn’t bad and it isn’t great. While it may true that some BBBs have problems, not ALL of them do. I say this as non-member business owner and as a consumer. Many of these BBBs have saved me thousands of dollars in my lifetime and have helped me resolve problems with many companies including eBay that otherwise would not have been resolved. In addition to the BBB, I always use reviews of a marketer that can be found on the Internet. Sometimes, you will have to go into the deepest depths of the Internet to find them though, because they have been pushed so far down.
It is ironic that you referred to a prerecorded and edited video clip in a thread with the main debate being about the ethical use of pre-recorded webinars. I understand your need to promote this product, but I certainly would not be purchasing this product even if I did need it just based on your statement “the BBB is the biggest scam there is. To me, it just seems like you are pushing this product too hard, and this may work for some people, but I am not one of them.
I have dealt with the BBB numerous times to resolve issues and I would encourage anyone to use it to resolve problems or issues with a company. It simply works and millions of people use it. Consumers should not let that statement or prerecorded and edited video scare them away from using the BBB. For a consumer, it simply does work if used correctly. If based on that statement from an Internet Marketer and that video clip, one chooses not to use this valuable consumer resource, then so be it.
I will still be using it and so will many other businesses and consumers and benefiting from it. No it isn’t perfect. Really, how many companies or large organizations are?
Good luck with your promotion. I have turned the page and am now moving on.
Brett Simpson
August 6, 2011Ok, I’ve watched this play out quite a long while, as in the last 15 years or so that I have been marketing online, here is my take on the whole thing.
1.) Comparing guns/cars to the ethics of a pre-recorded webinar is nuts! Basically I would consider that unethical to make those kind of statements, period. Enough said on that.
2.) Mike Filsaime is an excellent marketer, he’s also an ex-car salesman, and he’s good at selling things. He does tend to have the ‘here’s what’s next’ approach, and ‘you should buy this now’, etc, etc… That’s a testament to how well he has done at selling everyone, including other marketers on how good he is. I’m not that impressed with some of his choices.
I try to ignore most of the Mike Filsaime sales ‘hype’ and listen to what he has to say about marketing without getting too ‘wrapped up’ in everything he thinks I should have. His lessons are important, as is his knowledge, but I’m not that interested in the marketing approaches he uses. But, he does refund you quite quickly if you’re not happy, so I don’t think getting a refund from Mike is a problem (I’ve had several without any issues).
Mr. Filsaime is known for having excellent concepts, though the methods he chooses to carry them out sometimes leave a bad taste in my mouth (that’s my opinion). In my opinion, he has really good ideas and concepts, yet he seems to find programmers in other countries to carry out his work. I’m not sure why that is the case, but I can guess it saves him money.
3.) I could not see the real value in John’s bonus, unfortunately as I do not see enough about what it does to help me.
4.) I do not believe it’s that valuable to have such a sophisticated delivery platform for webinars, as anyone with Camtasia, or free screen recorders can create simple recorded videos and deliver the same type of content, especially when combined with something like Easy Video Player, which already tracks things like how long someone watches your video, etc…
5.) I think it’s crazy to be marketing a $500 product in this economy, maybe if it was 1/2 of that, or 1/4th I would consider it, but it’s just not the right time, in my mind, for such an expensive product.
So, the whole reason I did not purchase is that I feel it’s overpriced, and that the value of this for most marketers, except the very highest echelon is not worth the cost of the product.
I think it’s more important to choose tools that will do the job as required, for the least amount of money, and to take action using those tools, rather then to try to find something that can achieve everything in the world, but costs accordingly. If you’re already making big money as a marketer, and selling to other marketers, maybe this is a good choice, but I believe most marketers are not up to that level, yet.
I do value John’s opinions, and his expertise in all areas of marketing, but for me, it’s just not worth the big expenditure at this time. Best of luck to all who do purchase.
-Brett
Brian Ripley
August 8, 2011This is a very good well reasoned post and it touches on some of the things that bother me about the current marketing techniques.
Price. The prices are far too high. Some of these people sling around numbers as if they were nothing. $497 here, $997 there. I get the impression that the gravy days are coming to a close and perhaps some more realistic numbers will be seen more and more. They are digital products after all and have no production costs except for the DVD’s which are becoming rarer.
Sales Letters. Does anyone actually read these interminable splurges that go on page after page? If you can’t get your message across in one or two pages, there might be something not quite right about the product. (“methinks the lady doth protest too much”)
Bonuses The worth of bonuses. The stated values of bonuses adding up to $16,000 or $24,000 is absolute nonsense. The value of any product is what you can get for it and these are generally products that have been sold out and are sitting in someone’s hard drive.
So A little more realism,please.
So, are all these product rubbish? Of course not. Some of them are excellent and well worth the price and give value for money. John Thornhill’s products usually give a lot of excellent usable content but lately I think he might be getting in with the fast buck merchants. He might want to step back and re-evaluate where this is going to lead.
Brian.
Rich Shaw
August 9, 2011Hi John,
As usual a good and interesting topic which in this case has opened a small can of worms.
I personally am still new to the internet marketing game but I already know that to keep ahead of the game you need to be up to date with the latest trends and means at your disposal.
I can see the potential of the Evergreen package but as I’m just starting out it’s a little out of reach for me just now but I will probably get it in the near future.
To me, it’s a great piece of software that, if used correctly will help you generate a sound return in which the prospect can view in their own leisure.
I must admit that there has been times when I have missed out on webinars because of real life issues and it’s frustrating when you miss out.
All in all, getting your product out to the larger audience in an ethical manner is what’s important and this product will achieve that used correctly.
Keep up the good work John
Rich
Omar Martin
August 9, 2011Thank God, we are all entitled to our opinions.
One thing is for sure… if you dig deep enough you will
find bad reviews and allegations of fraud about everything
…even Disney World and Mickey Mouse.
People will dig as deep as they have to until they find
a way to justify their own fears.
Automation is not unethical, it is smart business.
Webinars are the wave of the future in Internet Marketing.
Evergreen Business System software is worth 10x the asking price.
I am using it, John is using it and YOU should be using it.
You should buy it before the offer closes on Thursday.
Regards,
Omar
David Caudill
August 16, 2011Well said Omar
And yes I heard about Mickey and Minnie splitting up cause she was…. well ya know the whole Goofy thing. OK, that was bad, but there is a prime example.
So I believe E.B.S. “is smart business” as long as like any real product, it is presented for exactly what it is. And I hope that very soon I too will get in on E.B.S.
I mean did anyone attack A.B.C., C.B.S. or N.B.C. television networks when they used this disclaimer, ” This show was prerecorded before a live audience.” Yes some probably did but the networks covered their butt’s with that little phrase and hey ” Look at ’em now!!!”
Amazing the things available today isn’t it?
To your continued success,
David Caudill
John Reed
August 11, 2011Haha – I do feel a right Numpty!!
I have even ranted at Mike Filsaime for pestering me with emals about a “Blasted Webinar” system – BECAUSE I’M SICK OF WEBINARS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!!
If I’d taken the time to see just what this product was, I would have applauded it, not Blasted it!! I still can’t afford it, but it seems to do just what I would have wanted of it, though it’s probably incorrect to mention “webinar” in the same breath.
It sounds as though it’s more of a rolling “recorded seminar” scheme, even if it is portrayed as a Webinar. That’s the crux of the annoyance I guess – I think I even told Mike that I wasn’t interested in Webinars any more until they could be made available at a time to suit ALL the listeners……………
D-U-U-U-U-U-U-HHHH!
Little did I realise, I was just hacked off with tiring 2 am Webinars and the river of emails I’d had promoting what I thought was a system to increase their frequency!!
Ah Well, live and learn! Good Luck John and Omar.
John Reed, York, UK
Richard Kalt
August 14, 2011Hi John
Thanks for another hard-hitting, clear-thinking, ethical post! As many of your replies show, there are many in the IM industry who are at ease with false claims, and they will pay the price for this. But you, and all who complete your training and follow your principles (Hi Omar!) will go from strength to strength.
To your continued success!
Richard
David Caudill
August 16, 2011Hey John,
The way I see it is, if people say it is live and it’s not then that’s on them and we all know about Karma. But hasn’t the television vision stations been doing it for ever really with the disclaimer ‘ This show was prerecorded in front of a live studio audience.’ so it’s like anything else.
If people want to use it for unethical reasons,they will and they’ll suffer the fallout that comes along with dishonesty as well. Those that use it with honesty will reap the rewards.
To Your Success,
David Caudill
Brett Simpson
August 17, 2011Omar,
> Automation is not unethical, it is smart business.
> Webinars are the wave of the future in Internet Marketing.
> Evergreen Business System software is worth 10x the asking price.
I’m not discussing Automation further as you have your view, which is not mine.
Automation is the premise of the product, which by the way, blasted me with about 5 emails saying to login to the webinar, that it would be over soon – WAY before I even scheduled to view it, and then blasted me with 5 more emails when it was over – if you call that kind of automation good you need your head examined, as you’re losing customers left/right with that nonsense. So, I wonder about what I read next…
> I am using it, John is using it and YOU should be using it.
Sure, you’re using it, but did you test it? Because it’s buggy on my end, and secondly:
> You should buy it before the offer closes on Thursday.
I’m not sure why, when there are other ways of doing that much cheaper, see this system:
http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/380165-super-simple-automated-webinar-system-realistic-price.html
Notice it’s $20.00.
-Brett
Anna Garnier
August 25, 2011Hi John. Very good blog. I remember registering for this webinar for august 2nd at a time that was convenient for me (I live in Europe)so I asked to see it at 8.00 pm cet. but there was no webinar
strange ? Yes, I was dissapointed.
Anna.
Ray
August 26, 2011Hi John,
There is a lot of talk and pontificating about ethics in Internet marketing. But my belief is that a webinar is a live event where there is interaction between a marketer, attending colleagues, and participants.
Don’t call it a webinar if it’s really a pre recorded video,with a false attendees list and a fake live microphone icon. where you are also asked to send a question in by email just in case it can’t be answered during the supposed live webinar.
I am nobody’s fool and will be unsubscribing from marketers lists who think they can treat me like one.
Ray
John Thornhill
August 26, 2011It looks like I have lost you as a subscriber then Ray as I conducted my first recorded webinar today.
That’s unfortunate.
John
Gary
February 2, 2013A “live” webinar is kinda like a “LIVE” HOOKER.
A “previously recorded” webinar is kinda like a “PLASTIC BLOWUP DOLL”
It’s NOT the SAME.
End of story.
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